Posts by Cold Steel

64

Look, Up in the Air...It's a Bird, it's a Plane...No, It's a JW!!

by Cold Steel in

for you ex-jehovahs witnesses...and even you current ones...have you ever contemplated your future existence in paradise earth, should you be fortunate enough to end up there?

during those raucous, fun moments at the kingdom hall when you were contemplating eternity and having the times of your lives...did you ever speculate about what life would be like?

for example, would you have to walk everywhere or would you be able to fly around like superman?

Cold Steel

Nope, he's obviously the decendent of
Ada and Evil Knieval.

25

What have the 'myriads of angels' ever done for humanity?

by yadda yadda 2 in

think about it, myriads upon myriads of do-nothing, never lift a finger angels floating around, ignoring all the untold pain and suffering on this planet for thousands of years.

what have all these millions of angels ever done for anyone?

occasional random materialisations in ancient israelite times?.

What if "angels" are simply people who have not yet been born, or are people who have lived and died and not been resurrected, or have lived and died and are resurrected? When John bowed down to the angel in Revelation thinking he was Christ, the angel lifted him up and said, "See thou do it not, for I am thy fellowservant, and of of thy brethren the prophets." So if this angel had been a prophet in life, perhaps angels and people are the same.

105

New Article on BEARDS and Attire of Jehovah's Witnesses

by jwfacts in

i have had requests to add an article about beards and jehovah's witnesses.

it is interesting that there is virtually no statement that says a witness cannot have a beard, yet universally they do not have beards.

i have scoured quotes from all the threads on jwn, all references to beard on the cd watchtower library, and copies of elders letters that i have.

Cold Steel

Me: "What's wrong with a beard?"

Elder: "Could you trust someone who wears a beard?"

How do you answer that?

Me: "I trust JESUS. He has a beard. And the scriptures teach that HE is in the "express image" of the FATHER. Most of the apostles, if not all of them, had beards, and I would trust THEM.... Under such circumstances, I would trust people with beards more than I'd trust people without beards. But, then, Judas had a beard, too, most likely. What about you, elder? Could you trust someone with a beard?

64

Look, Up in the Air...It's a Bird, it's a Plane...No, It's a JW!!

by Cold Steel in

for you ex-jehovahs witnesses...and even you current ones...have you ever contemplated your future existence in paradise earth, should you be fortunate enough to end up there?

during those raucous, fun moments at the kingdom hall when you were contemplating eternity and having the times of your lives...did you ever speculate about what life would be like?

for example, would you have to walk everywhere or would you be able to fly around like superman?

Cold Steel

Well, you guys have been busy, and there's too much here to respond to, but I'll try to hit a few before turning in.

First, do you think I'm making this stuff up on the Sabbath? Behold, from the American Heritage Dictionary. And yes, the Mormons claim revelation, and a number of places in those revelations, the Lord called Sunday both "The Lord's Day" and the "Sabbath." Think as you wish concerning those revelations, or Joseph Smith.

Regarding continental drift, you might be interested to know that Joseph Smith was one of the earliest proponents of that theory. I have no idea when it occurred, but the real question was whether the Garden of Eden could have been in the landmass that is now Missouri? Well, the real issue is whether the Garden of Eden was anywhere, ever? Since if there is no Adam, there is no need of Jesus, then we hold that yes, there was an Adam and there was an Eden. My point is that Missouri is no more or less ridiculous than any other place in the world. If anyone would know where it was, it would be God. So Missouri? Africa? Babylon? Who cares?

Randy, your views are well stated; however, touching on translation, a translation is just taking the meaning of one document and changing it into a language that can be read by those who don't know the original. If the Book of Mormon is an actual historical document, as we claim, then the volume has been translated correctly. Again, Joseph Smith never needed to produce such a document to gain credibility for restoring the church. He could have saved a lot of trouble by just claiming the revelations. And as for the belief that the Book of Mormon prophets taught one thing and that doctrines later revealed more advanced doctrines, yes, that's true. Like the New Testament, the Book of Mormon was a record of the fundamental gospel taught to man. But it was the Doctrine & Covenants that revealed the doctrines lost over time. Plus, the Book of Mormon also revealed quite a background of necessary doctrines. For example, some critics argue that the Book of Mormon can't be true because its prophets offer up sacrifices, yet there is no evidence of Levites being present. But Alma 13 describes the presence of the higher priesthood, termed the Melchizedek priesthood, which held the keys of the lower priesthood and, hence, the authority. Many things -- technical things -- that Joseph Smith had to keep up with, and this was just one of them.

Finally, words like "Bible" and "hour" are not anachonisms. A bible is simply a collection of books, scrolls or codices, and an hour is simply a segment of time. If you view the book as a translation, you'll understand it more fully if you don't get hung up in the technicalities. It's not a translation in the same sense the Bible is. If the text said "King James Version of the Bible," that would be one thing. But the prophets knew that a bible -- that is, a small collection of books -- would be used in our day as our canon of scripture, and they called them whatever the Hebrew or reformed Egyptian words were appropriate.

64

Look, Up in the Air...It's a Bird, it's a Plane...No, It's a JW!!

by Cold Steel in

for you ex-jehovahs witnesses...and even you current ones...have you ever contemplated your future existence in paradise earth, should you be fortunate enough to end up there?

during those raucous, fun moments at the kingdom hall when you were contemplating eternity and having the times of your lives...did you ever speculate about what life would be like?

for example, would you have to walk everywhere or would you be able to fly around like superman?

Cold Steel

Outlaw: Other Odd Mormon Beliefs

Congratulations on the lamest post of the month! You managed to get...let's see...oh, yes...uh, only ONE of these correct!

Dinosaur fossils are to test our faith, and likely came from matter left over from past destroyed planets that were used/recycled to create Earth.

Nope. Not so. We have many doctrines that others don't have, such as belief in the premortal existence of mortal spirits, but no one I know believes that garbage about dinosaur bones. It's not Mormon doctrine, but comes from the radical Protestent teachings. If dinosaurs lived in an earth, they would have been resurrected on that Earth. All animals on all planets gain resurrection just as the animals we see on Earth.

God is a resurrected, extra terrestrial, exalted human male who lives on a planet near a star called Kolob.

Here's what the book states:

AND I, Abraham, had the Urim and Thummim, which the Lord my God had given unto me, in Ur of the Chaldees. And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it. And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.

And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord's time, according to the reckoning of Kolob. And the Lord said unto me: The planet which is the lesser light, lesser than that which is to rule the day, even the night, is above or greater than that upon which thou standest in point of reckoning, for it moveth in order more slow; this is in order because it standeth above the earth upon which thou standest, therefore the reckoning of its time is not so many as to its number of days, and of months, and of years.

And the Lord said unto me: Now, Abraham, these two facts exist, behold thine eyes see it; it is given unto thee to know the times of reckoning, and the set time, yea, the set time of the earth upon which thou standest, and the set time of the greater light which is set to rule the day, and the set time of the lesser light which is set to rule the night.

See Book of Abraham, chapter 3 in Pearl of Great Price..

The Holy Ghost goes to bed at midnight, so all dates, sleepovers, or other activities by youth or single people need to end by midnight or else you won't have protection or guidance against the temptations of the devil.

Crapola.

There are people living on the moon. LINK They dress much like Quakers and they are tall, many standing seven feet tall or more. One day we will send missionaries to teach them the gospel.

Crapola. The old moonmen thing is pretty old and only appears in the urban legends section. It's only source comes from the diary of a kid who was 11 years old at the time he met the prophet. No one else heard Joseph Smith make the remark, and it most certainly is a very tall story by any standard!

64

Look, Up in the Air...It's a Bird, it's a Plane...No, It's a JW!!

by Cold Steel in

for you ex-jehovahs witnesses...and even you current ones...have you ever contemplated your future existence in paradise earth, should you be fortunate enough to end up there?

during those raucous, fun moments at the kingdom hall when you were contemplating eternity and having the times of your lives...did you ever speculate about what life would be like?

for example, would you have to walk everywhere or would you be able to fly around like superman?

Cold Steel

Randy: Surely one is left to wonder why a Greek word like “Christ” appears in a text that should have no Greek influence. The name Timothy also has this problem (3 Nephi 19:4).

The answer is not complicated. The Book of Mormon is a translation into English. “Christ” is understood in English to be “Messiah” or “Anointed One.” If Smith had used the word “Messiah,” it would have been a Hebrew term, not Greek. The original language in the Book of Mormon is said to be a short form of Egyptian. In 1830, none of these short forms were known, but now we know they existed in 600 B.C. In fact, the reformed versions were the most popular at that time, coming just before the Babylonian conquest when the link between Egypt and Jerusalem were at their strongest. Since the translation was from an ancient language to modern English, the only thing one needs to be concerned about is whether the translation was accurate; and we maintain it is.

Regarding names, again, Dr. Nibley explains:

The occurrence of the names Timothy and Lachoneus in the Book of Mormon is strictly in order, however odd it may seem at first glance. Since the fourteenth century B.C. at latest, Syria and Palestine had been in constant contact with the Aegean world, and since the middle of the seventh century Greek mercenaries and merchants, closely bound to Egyptian interests (the best Egyptian mercenaries were Greeks), swarmed throughout the Near East. Lehi’s people...could not have avoided considerable contact with these people in Egypt and especially in Sidon, which Greek poets even in that day were celebrating as the great world center of trade. It is interesting to note in passing that Timothy is an Ionian name, since the Greeks in Palestine were Ionians (hence the Hebrew name for Greeks: “Sons of Javanim”), and—since “Lachoneus” means “a Laconian”—that the oldest Greek traders were Laconians, who had colonies in Cyprus (BM Akish) and of course traded with Palestine.

What kind of numpties think the Sabbath is on Sunday anyway?! (The answer to that question is sun worshippers.) Sabbath = Sabbato = Saturday.

Nope. Sabbath = Hebrew šabb³t = š³bat = to rest = Sunday.

Saturday’s sabbath was changed to the first day of the week Sabbath = Sunday. This was confirmed to the church by revelation.

That’s just stupid. ‘Adam and Eve’ are fictitious, and all humans can be traced genetically to Africa and the Middle East.

You mean that's where we jumped out of the trees and began walking upright?

Mormons really believe this shite? They make JW beliefs seem almost sane. It’s always funny when someone comes along to ‘defend’ their ‘entirely rational’ religion by stating things that are just as irrational as the ‘myths’.

Oh, yes, I'm sure about that. Everyone thinks their own crap doesn't stink, and there's no exception of that here. Especially that dark matter stuff scientists promise us is out there. But it's invisible, we have no way of catching it or examining it. Still, I believe in it.

64

Look, Up in the Air...It's a Bird, it's a Plane...No, It's a JW!!

by Cold Steel in

for you ex-jehovahs witnesses...and even you current ones...have you ever contemplated your future existence in paradise earth, should you be fortunate enough to end up there?

during those raucous, fun moments at the kingdom hall when you were contemplating eternity and having the times of your lives...did you ever speculate about what life would be like?

for example, would you have to walk everywhere or would you be able to fly around like superman?

Cold Steel

Mormon Side Bar

I should have my own show. To quickly address some issues. Most of the following is just nonsense. And a few aren't nonsense but are contrived to make them appear nonsensical.

1) Sports should not be played on Sunday.

Yes, "should not" is the operative phrase here. Many Mormons do play on the Sabbath and I think even BYU plays. Technically, one should also not work on the Sabbath, but reserve it for the worship of God and for serving one's fellow man.

2) TV or movies should not be viewed on Sunday (except Church or "happy media").

Well, I don't know what "happy media" is. Sounds like a contradiction in terms. But if you refer to religious works, yes, the church encourages that. But again, how is this different from what the Bible teaches in regards to the Sabbath? I watch TV every Sunday and I haven't started growing horns yet.

3) Children should not be allowed to play with friends on Sunday.

Crappola.

4) If you have dark skin and convert to Mormonism, you skin will begin to lighten/ whiten.

As Dr. Hugh Nibley, professor of ancient scripture and one of my old professors, put it:

With the Arabs, to be white of countenance is to be blessed and to be black of countenance is to be cursed; there are parallel expressions in Hebrew and Egyptian. And what of Lehi's people? It is most significant that the curse against the Lamanites is the very same as that commonly held in the East to blight the sons of Ishmael, who appear to the light-skinned people of the towns as "a dark and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations...an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety," etc. (1 Nephi 12:23; 2 Nephi 5:24).

It is noteworthy that all the descendants of the Book of Mormon Ishmael fall under the curse (Alma 3:7), as if their Bedouin ancestry predisposed them to it. The Book of Mormon always mentions the curse of the dark skin in connection with and as part of a larger picture: "After they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people," etc. "Because of the cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people...and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey" (2 Nephi 5:24). The statement that "God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them" (2 Nephi 5:21) describes the result, not the method, which is described elsewhere. Thus we are told (Alma 3:13, 14, 18) that while the fallen people "set the mark upon themselves," it was none the less God who was marking them: "I will set a mark upon them," etc. So natural and human was the process that it suggested nothing miraculous to the ordinary observer, and "the Amlicites knew not that they were fulfilling the words of God when they began to mark themselves...it was expedient that the curse should fall upon them" (Alma 3:18).

Here God places his mark on people as a curse, yet it is an artificial mark which they actually place upon themselves. The mark was not a racial thing but was acquired by "whosoever suffered himself to be led away by the Lamanites" (Alma 3:10); Alma moreover defines a Nephite as anyone observing "the tradition of their fathers" (Alma 3:11). Which makes the difference between Nephite and Lamanite a cultural, not a racial, one.

Does this also apply to the dark skin? Note that the dark skin is never mentioned alone but always as attending a generally depraved way of life, which also is described as the direct result of the curse. When the Lamanites become "white" again, it is by living among the Nephites as Nephites, i.e., adopting the Nephite way of life (3 Nephi 2:15—16). The cultural picture may not be the whole story of the dark skin of the Lamanites, but it is an important part of that story and is given great emphasis by the Book of Mormon itself. There is nowhere any mention of red skin, incidentally, but only of black (or dark) and white, the terms being used as the Arabs use them.

Since the Book of Mormon is the product of a Middle East background, from a prophet who likely ministered to Arabic peoples, it's quite understandable that cultural elements crept in. You're judging a reference made by an Israelite prophet at about 600 B.C. by today's standards. The Bible itself speaks of curses of black skin, so the Book of Mormon, which comes from the same culture, shouldn't be judged too harshly.

Hell my son is dating a Mormon, I need to inform him. (He is black, LOL).
Well, there may be hope for you yet!

5) The Garden of Eden was in Missouri when Adam and Eve was kicked out.

True. At the time, though, all the landmass was one and was not divided until the days of Peleg. After the flood, the ark landed in what is now Turkey, very far from where it lifted off. We only know the location because of revelation. People mock it because it's modern day Missouri, but thousands of years ago, it was just part of a land mass. The same people who mock the Mormons have no problem with speculating the Garden was in Babylon or Africa. What's the difference?

6) All Saints are to return to Missouri before Jesus second coming, some believe this exodus back to Missouri would be on foot.

No, only a portion of the saints. A 12-echelon temple will be erected there, while the Jews will build a temple in Jerusalem. One of our prophets said he wouldn't be surprised if, given the tribulations of the time, whether we would have to make the trip by foot, but it was speculation. If this country is ever hit with an electro-magnetic pulse, from either the sun or a low-yield atomic weapon detonated in the upper atmosphere, a lot of people will be walking a lot of places. Hopefully, that won't happen.

7) Two LDS Elders or Missionaries will stand and protect the city of Jerusalem during Armageddon, spoken of in Rev. 11.

John does speak of two prophets who will be raised up to the Jews just before the battle of Armageddon. Since these prophets will be called and ordained by those holding the keys of authority in this dispensation, you can take your pick. If the Catholics are right, the two prophets will be Catholic!

8) 3 Nephites still rome the earth from Christ's visit to the America's blessed by him to not experience death until his second coming.

Many people have been translated since the world began. Enoch was one, Moses, Elijah and the apostle John. For story, click here.

9) Satan has power over the oceans, lakes and rivers which is why LDS missionaries are not allowed to swim.

Crapola.

10) Cremation will make being resurrected harder having to recollect all of your atoms/molecules from whereever they were spread.

Crapola. I plan to be cremated myself.

Cold Steel, please tell me this is not the teaching of the LDS today.

Consider yourself told. Keep in mind that you can make anything sound bizarre, weird, outlandish by presenting it in a stilted way. It's like Bill Mayer and his yukking it up over the "talking snake" in the Garden of Eden. For years, evangelicals yanked my chain about Mulek, the son of King Zedekiah, mentioned in the Book of Mormon. All the king's sons were killed, they said. Proof that the Book of Mormon is a fraud. Now, however, the tables have been turned. Seems the king did indeed have a son named MLK, which is really the same name sans vowels. Archeologists in Israel have even found his royal seal. Mulek is not mentioned in the Bible, but he is mentioned by the Book of Mormon. In fact, he was said to have been led to the New World, and many of our scholars believe he was brought here by Phoenician sailors. One, because they had a strong trading relationship with Zedekiah and, two, because the main river in the Book of Mormon was called "Sidon," which was a Phoenician city. There are dozens of evidences coming to light. If the Book of Mormon were false, the more we learn, the more it could be proven a fraud. Instead, it's just the opposite. The more we learn, the more plausible it becomes.

Now kindly let us stay on topic. I didn't bring up Mormonism, you guys did. If you want to communicate with me, please send me a PM and I will answer them as I'm able.
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64

Look, Up in the Air...It's a Bird, it's a Plane...No, It's a JW!!

by Cold Steel in

for you ex-jehovahs witnesses...and even you current ones...have you ever contemplated your future existence in paradise earth, should you be fortunate enough to end up there?

during those raucous, fun moments at the kingdom hall when you were contemplating eternity and having the times of your lives...did you ever speculate about what life would be like?

for example, would you have to walk everywhere or would you be able to fly around like superman?

Cold Steel

Well, I'm not sure about the implications of walking, myself. It doesn't seem as fun as flying. I always thought if I were going to do a movie about IRON MAN, I would open it with Iron Man streaking across the ocean just a few feet off the surface with a series of close-ups and subjective shots of the water ripping past the camera at incredible speeds. I've always figured there was a better way of getting around than just walking. I remember a professor of mine who read from some ancient religious texts that spoke of countless worlds thoughout the universe, and the resurrected beings would be able to visit these worlds at will, for they would all be under the Father's direction and control. They speculated that these kingdoms would be many and varied and that beings from those worlds would be able to visit ours. But they didn't speak in terms of ships, but of instantaneous travel via thought. They had quite the imaginations.

One of the quotations I remember was incredible. It was, as far as I can recall, "Everything is a system in the midst of like systems." It seems to apply to astrophysics and microphysics and it was what gave me the thought that our universe might be a universe in the midst of like universes. The thing that really blows my mind is that space seems to have a shape to it. What might be outside the bounds of that shape? Who knows? But our minds are incredibly ill-equipped to deal with what's out there.

The apostle John states that in the resurrection, the elect will receive the same resurrection as Christ and that they will be co-heirs with Christ. Thus, everything that the Father has will be given to them. I suspect that the next life will be quite a bit more complex than we have any idea. Certainly better than living in a Garden. Bit if I was going to be living in a garden, why not hope for the best. When I read Kyria Abraham's book, I'M PERFECT, YOU'RE DOOMED, I was a bit taken back when she admitted to dreaming about whose house she could move into once Jehovah killed everyone in the big-A. That's what got me thinking about what JWs really expect after the balloon goes up. If people can debate the blood issue for three hours, why not speculate on the really cool stuff you might be able to do with a perfect, indestructable resurrected body?

Years ago I recall reading a book called, THE PEOPLE, by Zenna Henderson. They were from another planet and were human in appearance. But they all could levitate (some more than others), some were healers, others could make force fields. It was made into a movie with William Shatner. One Amazon review wrote: "The People are too real. I base most of my beliefs and my life on this book and the other books about the People. It has helped me with raising my children and with handling all of lifes issues." Anyway, I read all of her books in the series.

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40

Have You Ever Met...Or KNOW...a GB Member?

by Cold Steel in

if so, what is your experience?

i've seen only a few talks by gb members and would like to hear what they're like.

are they personable, aloof, humble, arrogant?

Cold Steel

BluesBrother: Personalities, good or bad are not what counts. It is just the words - is it true or false?

Is it common for them to be asked about their callings? If someone asks them about how they receive light, do they mind or do they become annoyed? I haven't read any of Raymond Franz's works. Was he kicked out, asked to leave or just leave because he couldn't justify it anymore. Also, do they seem to believe in their own callings? Do they ever get dogmatic?

Does Franz still believe in the religion or has he renounced it wholeheartedly?

When these guys travel around, do they suggest door approaches, tell you what you should warn people of? Do they usually take questions when they speak and are they ever asked about the big-A?

And what of the media? Do they ever grant interviews? If I were a non-JW and found myself in their neck of the woods and wanted to meet with one, could I get in?

Finally, who's the senior member? Is he the CEO or are they all equal?

40

Have You Ever Met...Or KNOW...a GB Member?

by Cold Steel in

if so, what is your experience?

i've seen only a few talks by gb members and would like to hear what they're like.

are they personable, aloof, humble, arrogant?

Cold Steel

Bluepill2: "We just know. Easy as that." One of the Bethelites spontaneously said: "Yes, but how exactly does it work? How do you feel you are one?" He said: "How do you know that you are a male?" and [stood] up saying that everybody should go back to work and that he has to leave now. I will never forget this.

That’s quite a story. Sounds like a question he gets a lot because the answer sounds like it’s been used before. The real question I wish someone would have asked him is how are people outside of the Governing Body supposed to know of their inspiration? I imagine if anyone pushed it much further that there might be repercussions.

I’m amazed that you said these guys have an uneasy alliance. Was this just a feeling you got or is it just something that’s well known? Some of the early apostles had some disagreements, but Peter was the senior and when revelation came to the church, it came through him.

I understand that the body members won’t or can’t interfere with individual disfellowshiping, but they could alter the guidelines used in the baptismal questions and in disciplinary actions. They’re also the ones who made the power grab making them the head of the denomination.

Have you ever known any of these guys to show anger?
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Balaamsass: Four of us debated the entire blood transfusion/fractions thing vs Kosher rules for 3 hrs at work one day. Another day field service on Saturdays vs TV broadcasts...and what would Jesus choose were he on earth for a couple of hours. THOSE conversations would = Disfellowshipping in most congregations today.

What would a debate for three hours about blood be like? Do you think if most members could vote on the issue, do you think they'd keep it the way it is now or change it? Are people who weaken and allow their children to receive blood disfellowshiped?

And why in the world would the GB be against one using one's own blood? Does the GB claim to receive "light" on this topic or is it just their interpretation of scripture? One reason they can't back off on this is beause, if you'd had a child, spouse or friend die because of the policy, can you imagine how you'd feel?

Does the GB ever take disciplinary action against anyone, or is that strictly up to the elders?

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